Modernity and Spirituality in Malaysian Anglophone Poetry: An Interview with the late

Malaysian literature in English epitomises the move to the new world and incorporates various national and international, social, political, and cultural subjects. Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof (1939-2022), an eminent Malaysian playwright and poet, voices the spiritual vacuum these changes bring within the modern man and draws the path towards relief, solace, and comfort in the soul ’ s journey back to the Creator. Ghulam-Sarwar ’s poetry explore s various social and cultural aspects, but no endeavour to date has been taken to discuss its spiritual dimensions. Given this background, this interview with Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof outlines his perspectives on the quest for spirituality and the modern man’s hunger and restlessness to find a meaning for existence as a way to connecting with the higher Being. Using the qualitative method of semi-structured interview that contains both structured and unstructured questions, the paper sheds light on the artistic abilities Yousof shows in blending themes of self, love, nature, and society. The paper attempts to critically appreciate the interweaving of modernity with spirituality in Ghulam-Sarwar’s poetry and demonstrates how it is clothed in simple language, coupled with a sublime content, and delineated


Introduction
On October 16, 2021, renowned Malaysian academic and writer mainly specialising in traditional Malay and South-East Asian theatre as well as Malaysian English Literature, Professor Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof (1939Yousof ( -2022)), was invited to a virtual Zoom interview to delve deeper into his literary output, especially poetry.As a prolific, multi-talented and well-versed writer, and the winner of Dove Award for Excellence in Poetry (Poetry Day Australia) 2001, Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof is acknowledged as one of Malaysia's most creative and original authors in the English language.He wrote poetry, drama, and short story.Of the three genres that he excelled in, he held a deep and special passion for poetry.As he noted: "I feel that my most important and meaningful literary achievement is my verse, and I would rather be remembered for my poems" (Yau and Raheem 172).His poetry has been published in several journals in various countries.He published three collections of verse: Perfumed Memories (1982), Songs for Shooting Stars: Mystical Verse (2011), and Transient Moments (2012).Yousof's poetry is multilayered; part of it explores everyday mundane life, whereas some verse puts forth profound reflections on his encounter with the higher 'alternative realities'.His poetry mirrors a profound influence from western and eastern poets as well as mysticism, particularly Sufism.
His poetry is distinctive from that of most Malaysian poets in theme and style.This may be largely due to his personal background and cultural heritage from both the Near East and South Asia, with which he was intensely conscious of and enthralled from his teens.Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof's literary writings are rooted in traditional Asian culture, mythology as well as religious experience, exploring little known aspects of Malaysian life and society.His poetry has been described as a distinctive contribution to Malaysian poetry in English (Thumboo 12).It reflects his search for the finest words to embody his state and frame of mind.Yousof's volumes revolve around themes of life and death, love and separation, existence and isolation, and a style packed with lyricism and imagery.Thumboo described his poetry self-contained and replete with its own best commentary.His poems appeared randomly in many journals such as Lidra and Dewan Sastera (Kuala Lumpur), Mele and Impulse (Honolulu), Pacific Quarterly (Hamilton, New Zealand), and Solidarity (Manila).Some of his poetic work was included in many eminent worldwide anthologies such as Thumboo's An Anthology of Poetry from Malaysia and Singapore (1976), Hashmi's The Worlds of Muslim Imagination (1986), Malachi's Insight: Malaysian Poems (2003).and many others.Beside composing original English poetry, Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof translated poetry from Urdu into English.He also collaborated with other writers in the translations of Persian poetry into English.
The following interview with Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof should provide some great insights to interested readers in general, and to poetry aficionados and serious followers of Ghulam-Sarwar's poetry in particular.

Q. Can you please tell us who is Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof and about his multicultural background?
Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof: Thank you.Yes, I am Ghulam-Sarwar Yousof.I was born on November 21, 1939 to Punjabi parents who had come from the Punjab province of the Indian subcontinent before the separation of Pakistan and India.They had moved to Malaysia decades ago, and I was born and raised in Malaysia.I got my primary and secondary education in English Medium at King Edward VII School in Taiping, Malaysia, then proceeded to the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur and got my first degree in English Literature, alongside my keen interests in Sanskrit, French, Urdu, Punjabi, Malay, Tamil, Hokkien, Tagalog, and Persian.In 1969, Universiti Sains Malaysia (USM) invited me to set up the first performing arts program and the first of its kind in the country.I went to Honolulu, USA in 1972 on a grant from the East-West Centre, entering directly into the PhD program of the University of Hawaii Department of Drama and Theatre.I made various research trips to America and Australia.I achieved a PhD in 1976 with a dissertation on the ancient Mak Yong dance theatre under the supervision of the renowned Asian theatre scholar, James R. Brandon (1927Brandon ( -2015)) GSY: Yes, as I have mentioned, I am basically from a "Punjabi" race yet when someone asks what my identity is, I can't define myself.I don't exactly know who I am.I am many things, partially Arab, partially Persian, partially Pakistani, and partially Malaysian.Above all these things, and in better words, I am an Asian writer.There is a lot of inseparable 'diversity' in my cultural background which for sure affected me, my personality, and my art.Yet I am definitely proud to be labelled as a South Asian writer.I believe I embrace all the historical, cultural, ethnic vastness, depth, variety, and magnitude of South Asia.I am from Punjab, I majored in English Literature, I got my doctoral degree in South Asian theatre, I wrote many papers about Malaysian, Indian, Indonesian, Japanese, and Hawaiian literatures and arts.So, my multicultural background as you said has deeply and inseparably enriched my South Asian identity over the years of my life.
Q.With all this insistence and persistence on your "South Asian-ness," you choose to write mostly in English, a colonially imported language in South Asia.How do you justify that?GSY: You are right, I write in English by choice and instinct.I studied entirely in English throughout my life, as English was imposed by the British in Malaysia.This colonially introduced language was as important and naturally present as another of the many languages of South Asia.Hence it is very natural to find many South Asian writers generating some of the world's finest literary works in the English language.Besides being my first language that I mastered to write in, I also believe that writing about South Asian themes, topics and style in English is a tool to assert this South Asian identity and conveying the South Asian cultures, arts, and literature to the world.

Q. Moving towards the thematic concerns of your poetry volumes, what are the major themes and how far are these themes "modern" or "spiritual"?
GSY: Yes, my poetry exhibits modernity in terms of themes, language, and context.It overtly voices the modern man's life moving away from the purely individual towards the whole world distilling the personal into a poetic texture that claims universal human significance.It tries to capture reality as it is, but this reality is different from the average reality that others write about.My themes revolve around the different layers of reality, not the surface one only.They range from the very bottom basic reality towards above surface, the universal, and further beyond, to the supernatural, metaphysical, and mystical realms.The themes are mostly Nature, God and Man, Love, etc.But my new poems possess a stronger mystical sense too.This is manifested in a clear and strong awareness of the connection, the relationship between the whole of Nature, once again not just the external vegetal nature, such as, trees, gardens, hills and mountains, water, and so on.There are plenty of those in my works, the whole of this -the connection of this to Man, and then the connection of Man to the Higher Realities at different levels until it touches the Ultimate Reality.Thus, in a way there is a new awareness of the Unity of Being.Everything in existence, including the poet, is related at the level of the atom.There is only one existence, eternal and permanent, existing in many forms; the forms are illusions (maya), ever changing.In reality then, there are only a handful of vital themes in my poems, as always.My poems suggest this kind of awareness.This is the awareness that brings the sense of sadness in living in the present state.
Life is seen in these poems as a trap.Escape is desirable.Escape is an important theme in my poems.There is in my poems an attempt to escape mediocrity and temporariness into something higher, something permanent.The mystical path indicates this as attainable.So, basically my poetry revolves around the theme of the search for reality and the representation of reality and that's what a real piece of literature should capture: the core reality of things and being, just as Aristotle's words that were carved into stone at the entrance to Apollo's temple at Delphi in Greece 'Know Thyself', which indicates the timeless importance of truth and knowledge in our lives.Hence my poetry is modern and mystic at the same time.It helps the modern man to discover the layers of self and being which ultimately leads him back to his Creator.

Q. So how far do we describe you as a "mystic"?
The thing that I would say is that I am not a practicing mystic.I like mysticism, I am fond of it, and I follow the Islamic mystic tradition and practice Zikr and some other mystical practices but I can't say that I am completely a mystic.Over the past couple of decades or so, I have been able to discover mysticism in a systematic and formal fashion and have come to understand it better in essence as well as in practice.It came through self-discovery.I suppose it was always there, but in my early years I lacked the precise vocabulary.I was, in some vague sense, like many around, inclined towards mysticism without even understanding it; a "natural mystic" something quite different from a "nature mystic."I suppose I was both.
The same is true about my poetry, it is not totally mystical, although some of my poems are mystic in their method and style, some of my poems reach that high level of mysticism, but mostly I don't try to be completely mystic.Mysticism is an element in my poetry through which I try to explain the universe in a better way than average means of understanding.I find it very difficult to relate to the world physically and keep pondering on life and the purpose of existence why we do come here and leave?What is the reality of this life?Mysticism helps me find answers to such questions and the true meaning of life, and that is what I try to reflect in my poetry.
Q. Do you agree that there is a kind of "cultural" mysticism which can be considered a new perspective of mysticism that you introduced into Malaysian English poetry?GSY: Yes, absolutely.I am a Malaysian and known as a Malaysian writer, but I don't believe in these cultural distinctions and my poetry proves the cross border and cross-cultural transmission of art and intellect.I do sometimes write about Malay culture and use its language, imagery, and setting but at the same time deploy language and themes from other cultures like Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, Hawaiian, and English.My mystical influences are basically from different Persian, Arab, Punjabi, or Urdu cultures.I interweave all these mystical thoughts which are transcendental beyond cultures and borders.So yes, you can say that my mystical themes are new to Malaysian writing in terms of being influenced by my multicultural background.These influences are noticed in themes and style as you said.It is indeed a new perspective in Malaysian Anglophone writing as it deviates from the previously displayed themes of surface level observations of individual lives and matters, the postcolonial concerns of national identity, and so on.So, my poetry is innovative in terms of writing on higher level subject matters like self-awareness and the search for truth and mysticality alongside other modern life matters, of course.The range of themes and imageries are not familiar and comprehensible to Malaysian people and even their poets.I remember when my first book Perfumed Memories came out I took it along to Perth where I met one of the earliest and famous Malaysian Anglophone poets, Ee Tiang Hong ) and asked him to review it.Two days later he met me and said that he couldn't review it because he "couldn't understand it!"So, it was unique, the Malaysian people had never been exposed to such profound multidimensional and multicultural poetic imagery and thoughts.My poetry is really multiple, meta-philosophical, multicultural, multilingual, and multidimensional.

Q. So where does your poetry fit into in the realm of Malaysian English language poetry?
GSY: Quite obviously the answer lies in how one defines "Malaysian."I do not think of myself as a Malaysian poet.I happen to be one by accident of birth.In my own work, even in traditional "Malay" theatre this is a problem.National boundaries are artificial, they mean nothing.A nation may come into existence; it equally may disappear.Next, we have cultural boundaries: these have greater meaning.In such terms I am not Malaysian, not even Indian or Pakistani, etc. if these are seen as areas within certain borders.From that point we go into the universalities: boundaries determined by religion, boundaries of East and West, and so on.These are better, but still limited.The real boundaries, for me, lie not in the physical world but in the realms of the mind, the atomic world, the "cosmic" worlds.This is where everything begins and where everything is linked.I hesitate to say that it all ends there.It may very well be perpetuity or a new beginning.
In my poems, some of these affiliations are already evident, and some of the effects of their coming together.They have all influenced me in terms of what I say and how I say it.If a label is to be placed, I would be an Indo-Muslim-Pakistani-Persian, etc. rather than a Malaysian.That would be more accurate.I think my poems are divisible into two categories: (a) External, (b) Internal.The external ones, fewer in number, are by far more direct.They deal with things observed, things experienced, situations, what most regard as reality.Some for these clearly fit into the category "Malaysian poems."But even the "external" poems can become complicated; the "Old Tree in the Botanical Gardens" and "Arboreal Moments" are good examples.The settings are familiar, but what the poems mean may not be that simple.I don't have to say any more about the "internal" poems.Most of my poems belong to this category: they are reflections, meditations and what not.

Q. Nature is dominantly prevalent in your poems as an important part of this mystical attitude. Can you elaborate on this?
GSY: Somehow, nature has been with me and a part of me from the very beginning of my existence.Throughout, I have been drawn to it in so many different ways, in varying degrees of intensity.I can see this connection in many dimensions: elemental, physical, emotional, instinctual, spiritual, metaphysical, and mystical.These connections are best reflected in my poetry.One thing I am very clear about is that my poems including those connected with nature should not be purely descriptive, or deal with a single level experience in terms of relationship.This is the hallmark of my work.There are exceptions, but very few.Interestingly, my very first piece, "rain poem", had to do with water.I was to go on to write many more "watery" poems.Water, then, is my principal natural element.On a purely literal level water occurs as rain, as streams and rivers, as the sea and as the ocean, as clouds.The other elements: earth, air, and fire also have significant places in my work, though not as widely as water.Overall, they are reflections of my own self and selfhood.
Just as I am a drop of the ocean, I am also a speck of dust, a whiff of a passing wind; the flame of a candle lasting but a single night.One sees this in Umar Khayyam as well as, much more so, in Maulana Rumi.In my poems these images are never negative.They are, on the other hand, creative, sensuous, and effulgent.They do not "reduce" me in any way, even though I long for nothingness; they connect me to the endless Universe and the mighty Ocean of Creation.External nature, in all its forms, great and small, when reflected in my poems, has to be understood in this same way, whether it be a drop of ocean, a whispering stream, a perfumed rose, a single leaf or a mighty tree, the echoing voice of a lonely bird in a garden.Each such image and all that emanates from it can be taken at that elementary level.But for me, that is far from sufficient.More meaningfully, it has also to be experienced in terms of the greater image: the Garden.It has been pointed out, and rightly so, that my poems are colored by a sense of melancholy.Such a quality may be seen in ghazal poetry, in Mirza Ghalib for instance.It comes from deep reflection.Sadness is, in fact, my second nature flowing, literally, in my every vein.It has to do with my sense of loss.It comes from my physicality, the "separation" from the "Source."It is a longing for the eternal Union; a return to Primordiality.

Q. What factors have been of great influence on your poetry?
There are many influences starting with what I have already mentioned about my background, the multicultural backdrop and my multidimensional interest that made me inclined to write about different cultural themes and styles.Initially, my specialisation in English literature and study of major English poets made my poetry technically typical English lyrical poetry on the steps of the romanticism of Keats and Shelly.Then the more I was exposed to cultures the more they influenced my writing in both theme and style.
Malay culture itself is versatile and rich, it amazes my writings a lot.Indonesian culture is quite close to Malaysian culture and has also its influence.For instance, my Hawaiian poems reflect Japanese culture vividly as when I visited there I read, studied, and translated Japanese haikus and consequently imitated them in some places.Persian poetry also has a great influence since I was exposed to Maulana Rumi's poetry and his mystical perceptions about self and life.I am also fond of the Urdu ghazals and songs.I really like the early Urdu poets such as Dagh Dehlvi (1831-1905), Shakeel Badayuni (1916-70), and Daud Kamal (1935-87).I used to memorise their poems and songs in films.It was the beginning of my attraction to the ghazal form.I am fond of the ghazals of Mirza Ghalib (1797-1869) and have started translating some of them into English already.I am also influenced by the poetry of the Punjabi Sufis like Sultan Bahu (1630-91), Bulleh Shah (1680-1757), and Khwaja Ghulam Farid (1845-1901).So basically, the whole south Asian with its rich and vast civilisation and culture and all these factors have altogether influenced and shaped a lot of my poetry, especially the mystic ones.

Q. Moving towards your style, what stylistic features do you deploy in your creative poetry?
GSY: My style is, as I said, different from conventional Malaysian poetry in English and my manner of presentation of the aforementioned ideas and themes has become considerably complicated, even sophisticated.It goes in line with the deep thoughts specifically the higher mystic ones.My poems are not as simple as they look, due to the manner in which I exploit words and images.Although overall stylistically connected, my poems became more complicated with the passage of years; I like to believe they also become more sophisticated.One reason is the profound imagery.My imagery comes from that of the poets already mentioned.Much of it is standard -the garden, the nightingale (the image of the bird as soul, also comes from many animistic cultures; I found a link between Mak Yong and Hawaiian mythology to explain its most important story, Dewa Muda), the rose, the lover, and the beloved hidden behind veils upon veils of light or darkness (literal, symbolical, or mystical).
Mystical imagery and the breadth of this imagery, as expressed in my poetry, even if limited, can lead to powerful emotions, basically joy as in love, and sadness as in separation.While one is in and near the beloved, there is also the separation, real or potential.This is also the situation between Man and God or the Higher reality.Mirror images are very important in my poems -water as a reflection of all things, as a mirror too.And so on.There are hundreds of Sufi poems with water imagery.Water is a universal image, irrespective of religion; thus, in a way I try, in my poems, to transcend literalness, transcend meanings.Water is possibly the single most powerful image, even a theme in my poemswater in every form: rain, the oceans and rivers, the inner oceans, the waters of the rivers of Paradise, those that cleanse the heart, the waters that constitute our very being.It operates on many levels of meaning, and symbolism.
You may know one of my early poems "Drop of Ocean."It still is very significant.I have been using the standard imagery of Sufism which, surprisingly, is highly limited.But while using this imagery I have tried to widen and deepen its meaning.I look for multiple meanings like the multiple dimensions of reality; echoes and nuances widen this imagery.Something of this sort is apparent in my poems in Perfumed Memories: e.g., "To a grain of Rice," "Conch Shell," etc. So, the poems are Sufi, but in a different sort of way.In them I see influences from the Romantics-There is mysticism in their work, though not usually acknowledged or realised.Blake, Wordsworth and Rumi are close, even if the styles are different.
Wordsworth is not bound to the "formal" structures of Sufi poetry.In a way I have the same sort of approach.If a link is to be found between Romanticism (including neo-Romanticism, particularly Yeats) and Rumi, then one name that emerges, inevitably is that of Plotinus (Neo-Platonism).
One of the key elements in trying to understand my poems is, of course, Symbolism.My early poems were stylistically (language-wise) influenced by those of the French symbolists, Rimbaud in particular.In content they go beyond, as indicated earlier, because of other influences.The symbolism has become much more complex with the addition of religion and mysticism.The language, deliberately made complex, allows for multiple interpretations.I see the theatre as symbolical, and the world even as symbolical, rather than real.Hence my major concern with Reality/Realities.
I have been finding this sort of symbolism even in the Qur'an.The world is a Mirror, in which God/Allah sees His Face (very Sufi, very Islamic).So, God/Allah is also a Symbol.His "Personality" if it is turned into a visual personality, would make God disappear for, by definition, God has to be beyond time, space, and all other contingencies.One of the potent symbols of this escape from the trap of "real" but not real life is the bird (symbolising the soul-Nightingale in Sufi poetry including Attar and Rumi).But the bird-soul is trapped in flesh.This is only one of the ways in which the dilemma is expressed in my poems.The other image, connected with the bird is the journey, the external journey and the more important inward journey.This is a key theme in my work: the many journeys, many different kinds of journeys, that make us all travelers on many paths, the many "ways."The true journey is a highly lonely one, I am the lone traveler, like everyone else.
Mythology is another feature that I employ in my poetry to convey different themes.For example, the story of Bhima's search for the Holy Water, i.e., cosmic consciousness, or self-realisation.This theme with Bhima as central image is seen in my poem "Tirta Pawitra."This is the first and final searchtowards self-knowledge, the true wisdom, for when one discovers oneself one also discovers God.I have a draft paper on the story of Oedipus (Oedipus Rex and Oedipus at Colonus) as a mystical work, or a work connected with the Greek Mysteries -probably the first paper of its kind.It will be published following some additional notes.There are all kinds of possible connections through Alchemy, the ancient mysteries, etc.Some of it is found (hidden) in western poetry, even in fairly recent works (especially Yeats and Whitman) but elsewhere too, in Transcendentalism, the plays of Eric Schmitt and Jon Fosse (inspired by Rumi, and the Quantum Theory!).Looking at things this way opens up the entire visible and invisible universe.Hence the various dimensions of being in my poems -dimensions both interior and exterior.They are limitless.
Regarding the tone, there is plenty of pain and sadness in me personally, and in the poems.It has been there for as long as I remember.It is almost a second nature to me.The "normal" world, as we know it, can and in some of my poems has become a source of boredom, pain, sadness, and meaninglessness that I experience it and express it as a sense of loss, of separation from Reality.Our everyday reality is to me quite meaningless and getting to adjust to it and living it is quite a challenge.The separation from our true nature is something that happened eons ago.Adam has been a "wanderer" since he left paradise.But I don't think I reach the point of desperation, though I have often come very close to it.This is a major challenge to be in this world and yet be outside it, or not be a part of it; to live (in the conventional sense) and yet in a sense to be not-alive.Hence the great urgency to escape "the fever and the fret" of Keats, the desire to sail towards Byzantium in Yeats, the longing for death from the common, the sordid world into Eternity.These cannot be seen as examples of mere "escapism"; it is an intense desire or urge to shift from the mundane reality to the true cosmic Reality.
Q.We have noticed that your poems are never long, and mostly in the form of free verse.How can that be related to all the themes you mentioned before?GSY: My poetry is dense and short because the message it gives is so.Long poems are rare as you said.Every poem I write undergoes a procedure of revision, cutting, shortening, and filtering words and style to make it precise and dense because that is what goes with the depth and intensity of the themes it reflects following the ingredients of traditional mystic verse that is short and expressing mystical hints in dense grammatical construction.As my ideas are limitless, unmeasurable, and unfathomable, I don't like them to be confined to a specific meter and rhyme.My verse is as free as I want my soul to be, it is as infinite as the messages it conveys.

Q. To conclude, in your view, what makes a piece of poem great and truly eternal?
GSY: Well, it is difficult to answer this question.There is no particular role that everyone should follow to produce a good poem.It is totally a personal procedure.No doubt there's a certain indefinable universality to great works of literature.But I believe that poetry should be sophisticated in theme and style, with a timeless quality like an unfathomable ocean, something you sense, that reaches out to the reader.It should be spontaneous and should have power and mystery running through it so that not everything is recognisable or accessible, it should require readers to search for meanings, not intended to be effortless, since ironically the poet won't achieve any explanations in the words alone.The intensity of feeling and potentiality of mood should be effectually embodied in a poem, it should be something that is emotive and touching, genuine and unpretentious, and delivering an impression and script that is rich enough for the . My PhD was the world's first ever doctorate on any of the Malay performing arts.Coming back to USM in 1976, I worked as the Head of the Performing Arts program and was an Associate Professor until 1995.After some years of freelance teaching and research, I joined the Cultural Centre of the University of Malaya (UMCC) as Professor in theatre studies.In 2009, I joined the English Department of the International Islamic University of Malaysia (IIUM) in Kuala Lumpur as Senior Academic Fellow, and my academic duties included supervising postgraduate students in theatre as well as visual arts.Meanwhile, I served as a visiting professor and guest lecturer at universities in Asia, Australia, and Europe and have actively participated in many conferences and theatre and cultural programs concerning different disciplines in Asian arts and culture.My research interests include traditional Southeast Asian theatre, Asian literatures, folklore studies, South and Southeast Asian cultures, comparative religion, mythology, and Sufism.I am considered the pioneering finder of many traditional Malay and Southeast Asian genres such as the wayang kulit (shadow play), the mak yong (dance theatre), and bangsawan.Internationally, I have made significant achievements in developing South Asian genres in Indonesia, the Philippines, mainland Southeast Asia, and India.I compiled the Bibliography of Traditional Theatre in Southeast Asia which was published by the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore in 1991.It is regarded as my biggest contribution to the Asian theatre.